Curse

byteme! · Jan 20, 2007, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by oinkers

Motivation Paras have been totally nerfed!!!

From the latest skill balances:

# Aria of Restoration: decreased healing to 30..90.
# Aria of Zeal: decreased Energy gained to 1..6.
# Ballad of Restoration: decreased healing to 30..90, decreased recharge time to 15 seconds.
# Chorus of Restoration: decreased healing to 30..90.
# Song of Restoration: decreased healing to 30..90.

All resto in Motivation has been decreased! Spear appears to have been very slightly buffed, but it's still unusable.

Rits on the other hand:
# Life: decreased recharge time to 20 seconds, decreased duration to 20 seconds, increased healing-per-second it was alive to 1..7.
# Preservation: decreased recharge time to 20 seconds, increased duration to 90 seconds.
# Spirit Light: increased healing to 60..180.
# Weapon of Warding: decreased casting time to 1 second.

All buffs

My resto rit is even more powerful now

))

More powerful? I don't see any dmg buffs. So you can prot a team what else is new?

jinshifu · Jan 20, 2007, 12:09 AM // 00:09

What I don't get is that if paragon's were underused and useless, why would Anet feel the need to nerf motivation?

oinkers · Jan 20, 2007, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

More powerful? I don't see any dmg buffs. So you can prot a team what else is new?

Prot isn't heal. I was talking about restoration, not communing. Spirit Light now heals for more (180), Preservation lasts for 90 seconds (up from 60).

Rit's channeling also got buffed (see Destructive was Glaive giving 25% armor penetration, Bloodsong now channeling instead of communing, Channeled Strike decreased recharge time), but I really dont care for it. What's significant is resto rits got seriously buffed, whereas Paragon motivation is even more broken than before due to it healing less.

oinkers · Jan 20, 2007, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinshifu

What I don't get is that if paragon's were underused and useless, why would Anet feel the need to nerf motivation?

Not that paragons were underused, there's lots of them running around still. They weren't useless as such, but the point is that other classes out-perform Paragons in most configurations.

But it's not like Motivation was such a must-have line to be nerfed so hard. And spear was tweaked slightly upwards, but the increases in spear don't seem to have offset the heavy losses that motivation has taken. I can't find one spear skill that I like to use, even with the changes.

One of the nicest elites for Paragons (Song of Restoration) is now healing for less. And none of the useless elites like Incoming (lasts 4 seconds!?) were made any better. Makes Paragons even less attractive.

Mad5cout · Jan 20, 2007, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by oinkers

Motivation Paras have been totally nerfed!!!

From the latest skill balances:

# Aria of Restoration: decreased healing to 30..90.
# Aria of Zeal: decreased Energy gained to 1..6.
# Ballad of Restoration: decreased healing to 30..90, decreased recharge time to 15 seconds.
# Chorus of Restoration: decreased healing to 30..90.
# Song of Restoration: decreased healing to 30..90.

All resto in Motivation has been decreased! Spear appears to have been very slightly buffed, but it's still unusable.

Rits on the other hand:
# Life: decreased recharge time to 20 seconds, decreased duration to 20 seconds, increased healing-per-second it was alive to 1..7.
# Preservation: decreased recharge time to 20 seconds, increased duration to 90 seconds.
# Spirit Light: increased healing to 60..180.
# Weapon of Warding: decreased casting time to 1 second.

All buffs

My resto rit is even more powerful now

))

FOR CLARIFICATION (yet again... oinkers lacks research):

These skills were altered but the descriptions on GW website is slightly inaccurate. The lower end levels on these skills have been decreased BUT the higher end on most of these skills have been INCREASED. They have readjusted the scale of what you get at each level.

Aria of Restoration: old = 40...88, new = 30...90
Aria of Zeal (actual nerf): old = 1...7, new = 1...6 (oooo....)
Ballad of Restoration: old = 30...78, new = 30..90 (doesn't look like a decrease to me...oops GW website) , decreased recharge time to 15 seconds. (this used to be 10 seconds and is now longer)
Chorus of Restoration: old = 40..88, new = 30..90.
Song of Restoration: old =40-88, new = 30..90.

Hmm... since no one in their right mind would use these skills unless maxing the attributes, it looks like the spells got STRONGER. NOT NERFED. They did this because they realized the people who were packing skills out of their maxed attributes were OWNING with these secondary buffs. So, they make the lower end values less.

...GL with the new Rit balances oinkers...

oh btw, you missed this before:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/f...play.php?f=224

oinkers · Jan 20, 2007, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Does it heal for less when you're running at 13/14 motivation, compared to before? I doubt many Paragons run at 16.

And I can't see how reducing the healing (ANet's words, not mine) is a buff.

bartwart · Jan 20, 2007, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by oinkers

Motivation Paras have been totally nerfed!!!

From the latest skill balances:

# Aria of Restoration: decreased healing to 30..90.
# Aria of Zeal: decreased Energy gained to 1..6.
# Ballad of Restoration: decreased healing to 30..90, decreased recharge time to 15 seconds.
# Chorus of Restoration: decreased healing to 30..90.
# Song of Restoration: decreased healing to 30..90.

I'm not sure what you're getting all excited over. The range for the healing skills you mention were previously 44 - 88. So yeah, the low end of the spectrum was hit, but the high end(+2 whoopie!) is virtually unaffected. Aria of Zeal was previously 1..7. The decreased recharge time always helps too. I can't speak for motive paragons, but it looks like they weren't affected.

strcpy · Jan 20, 2007, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by oinkers

Does it heal for less when you're running at 13/14 motivation, compared to before? I doubt many Paragons run at 16.

Well, if you are a "motivation paragon" then a good chance you are. Mine does, 16 for most builds and 15 for a few. I can not say how many do this as I do not know, but looking at motivation builds submitted to GuildWiki appears quite a few run at 15 or 16.

Quote:

And I can't see how reducing the healing (ANet's words, not mine) is a buff.

Are you sure you want to run with this after reading the above posts comparing numbers? You may wish to step back for a moment and think about how such statements make you look.

oinkers · Jan 20, 2007, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

Well, if you are a "motivation paragon" then a good chance you are (running with 16)

I seriously doubt this. You wont get enough points to put in Leadership to get any decent amount of energy back to fuel your motivation. Plus, Paragons are more vulnerable than other classes to have a wide points-spread across multiple attributes because of the way the char is setup - putting 9 points in spear is not uncommon, for example. That makes a full 16 in motivation less likely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

Are you sure you want to run with this after reading the above posts comparing numbers? You may wish to step back for a moment and think about how such statements make you look.

Let's talk numbers.

Rits get a 50% increase in duration of Preservation and a decreased recharge time to 20secs, and Spirit Light goes up to 180hp from around 130 before. Prot was Kaolai now heals party for 85 when dropped. Spirit Light Weapon now heals for 15 per second (up from 10).

Paras get a +2hp increase at the top end with 16 in motivation - 88 to 90. Whoopee-doo-dah. Big fat heap dead loss. You've put a Sup Rune to get 16 in motivation and this update gives you a +2hp increase in a CONDITIONAL heal. Blow me over.

And Aria of Zeal which was the only vaguely usable energy-returning skill is now reduced to 1-6e regain (Energizing Finale was already nerfed to +1e last update). Song of Power wasn't buffed, so Paragons can't really party-wide buff on energy. I fail to see how any of this is a improvement at all.

Note: I tested my Rit with Well of Power over the past 2 days - it's really, really seriously juicy to buff the entire party's energy. Nothing the Para has can compare.

I know which combo I'd prefer. You may now step back to the dunce's corner and STAY there.

Mad5cout · Jan 20, 2007, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by oinkers

I seriously doubt this. You wont get enough points to put in Leadership to get any decent amount of energy back to fuel your motivation. Plus, Paragons are more vulnerable than other classes to have a wide points-spread across multiple attributes because of the way the char is setup - putting 9 points in spear is not uncommon, for example. That makes a full 16 in motivation less likely.

mmmk. First the values that are listed in the skill discription are NEVER with runes in. So, the top values are not at 16 but max with no Runes. Given how the math works out from lowest level to highest I am willing to bet that the higher end with a rune in turns out to be more than just a increase of 2. What I was pointing out was that the top values have not been nerfed but rather they have been increased and your lack of knowledge of the paragon skills past and present is clearly evident yet again.

Secondly, the paragon motivation healer that I posted and that has been in question in this particular thread (which you STILL have not looked at) does not run with attributes spread out. NONE of the builds I have posted (check the orignal post links) use a spread attribute set up. They all have two max attributes and the rest in spear or something else.

Quote:

Let's talk numbers.

Rits get a 50% increase in duration of Preservation and a decreased recharge time to 20secs, and Spirit Light goes up to 180hp from around 130 before. Prot was Kaolai now heals party for 85 when dropped. Spirit Light Weapon now heals for 15 per second (up from 10).

Paras get a +2hp increase at the top end with 16 in motivation - 88 to 90. Whoopee-doo-dah. Big fat heap dead loss. You've put a Sup Rune to get 16 in motivation and this update gives you a +2hp increase in a CONDITIONAL heal. Blow me over.

And Aria of Zeal which was the only vaguely usable energy-returning skill is now reduced to 1-6e regain (Energizing Finale was already nerfed to +1e last update). Song of Power wasn't buffed, so Paragons can't really party-wide buff on energy. I fail to see how any of this is a improvement at all.

Note: I tested my Rit with Well of Power over the past 2 days - it's really, really seriously juicy to buff the entire party's energy. Nothing the Para has can compare.

I know which combo I'd prefer. You may now step back to the dunce's corner and STAY there.

Read my previous post.

Some other helpful links, oinkers:

click here/

VERY important

strcpy · Jan 20, 2007, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by oinkers

I seriously doubt this. You wont get enough points to put in Leadership to get any decent amount of energy back to fuel your motivation. Plus, Paragons are more vulnerable than other classes to have a wide points-spread across multiple attributes because of the way the char is setup - putting 9 points in spear is not uncommon, for example. That makes a full 16 in motivation less likely.

Good one - more reason to not really listen to you. If your non-damage support build is putting 9 in spear mastery to meet its damage req you aren't really in the position to be commenting on builds. You don't understand enough of the game to do so. I have more than enough for 15 or 16 in motivation and have a good leadership and either command or a secondary attribute line.

I see quite a few vetted paragon builds in the wiki that have no spear mastery. In fact, it is rare to see a support build with any spear mastery at all in the effective builds. But, again, if that is what you want us to believe you think a support paragon build should look like, more power too you. Like I said, you may want to rethink that position.

Quote:

Rits get a 50% increase in duration of Preservation and a decreased recharge time to 20secs, and Spirit Light goes up to 180hp from around 130 before. Prot was Kaolai now heals party for 85 when dropped. Spirit Light Weapon now heals for 15 per second (up from 10).

Hmm, did I ever say otherwise? Obviously a Rit specced entirely towards healing will out heal a Paragon. Just a monk specced towards healing will out heal that Rit (and would, by your logic, dictate that a ritualist sucks). GG, you grasp a fundamental aspect of guildwars: the more specialized a class is towards a specific function the better they are than all the rest in that ability.

Quote:

Paras get a +2hp increase at the top end with 16 in motivation - 88 to 90. Whoopee-doo-dah. Big fat heap dead loss. You've put a Sup Rune to get 16 in motivation and this update gives you a +2hp increase in a CONDITIONAL heal. Blow me over.

So, in other words, you were wrong and is wasn't a nerf to a motivation paragons healing ability but, in some form or fashion, everyone who saw that the numbers got larger for the builds in discussion are the idiots? OK.

Quote:

And Aria of Zeal which was the only vaguely usable energy-returning skill is now reduced to 1-6e regain (Energizing Finale was already nerfed to +1e last update). Song of Power wasn't buffed, so Paragons can't really party-wide buff on energy. I fail to see how any of this is a improvement at all.

The Energy gain was a nerf, I do not think that anyone argued otherwise. If it makes you feel better, you are 100% correct on this. I will assume that when you say "I fail to see how any of this is a improvement at all" you meant to limit that to energy gain only as you said that healing was improved in an above paragraph.

Quote:

Note: I tested my Rit with Well of Power over the past 2 days - it's really, really seriously juicy to buff the entire party's energy. Nothing the Para has can compare.

I suggest you don't play a a Paragon if you find you are unable to play one well. Personally I find them both useful classes and depends on the rest of my team which works better.

If we want to use your logic then may I suggest a Necro - they are much better batteries than a rit.

Quote:

I know which combo I'd prefer. You may now step back to the dunce's corner and STAY there.

For what? Half your post has nothing to do with anything I have ever said. The other half is talking about a terrible build being terrible, not even remotely addressing what I said. You supplied a straw man and were *gasp* able to knock it down.

The main point of the only thing I have said to you - that you are refusing to pay attention to what anyone says and instead choose to rant about what you want them to have said - is only re-enforced. You are arguing about things obviously not true (a paragon main specced in motivation got their heals nerfed) and creating a terrible build to bolster your argument plus trying to argue with me about something I never said or even implied.

At this point, if I have no experience with some of the skills and how they work I have reason to believe you are incapable of rational and objective testing and comparison. If you can not even get simple things correct and refuse to even acknowledge simple mistakes I can not see how I should trust you on more complex issues. That is why you really ought to step back and make sure you want to stand by some of these statements.

strcpy · Jan 20, 2007, 06:06 AM // 06:06

I did notice that the skill updates page is not capped at 12, so the heals actually are decreased across the board, not just the lower levels. I just checked in game, at 12 motivation Song of Restoration does 78, 10 lower than before and definitely not 90. Currently I have my paragon's equipment using 16 leadership so I can not see where you get 90 health without changing runes(hero) and my paragaon character doesn't have any of the "restoration" line of skills. So, they were all nerfed down some.

Which sorta make Oinker's all over the place post even more amusing.

Jegred2 · Jan 20, 2007, 06:52 AM // 06:52

If you guys would read the posts in the weekend testing center then you would have known that they skills were posted up as 0-15 not 0-12.

Mad5cout · Jan 20, 2007, 06:52 AM // 06:52

He's right... Wow. They really f'ed us right up. I am going to test this build in the Domain of Fear and surrounding areas again to see if it is even viable anymore.

So, the big problem with paragons was that their spear attack/base damage was far to weak to be viable (IMO) and instead of fixing that, they decided to F up the motivation aspect of the character.

How did they decide those skills were too strong? They were just fine...

oinkers · Jan 20, 2007, 09:52 AM // 09:52

ANet better have made a mistake, because no one has anything nice to say about the Paragon updates in the Skill Changes sub-forum. The bunnies are revolting.

Mad5cout · Jan 21, 2007, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Everyone who loves paragons, needs to go comment on these skill nerfs here:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/f...play.php?f=252

Go, do it now. These skill nerfs are ridiculous, particularly for a class that is clearly already in jeopardy of being viewed as weak and useless by the community.